[00:00:12] Speaker A: Hello, I'm Rick Marshall of the Daily Gazette, and this is the martial arts podcast in which I talk to artists around New York's capital region about their work, their inspiration, and the experiences that connect us all, regardless of where we call home.
In the last episode, I spoke to toy designer and sculptor Paul Harding in his Boston Lake studio. In this episode, things get a little spooky during a conversation with Schenectady County Historical Society educator and program director Michael Diana, one of the expert storytellers guiding chilling candlelight tours of locations in Schenectady's Stockade district.
With Halloween just around the corner, it seemed like the perfect time to talk to Mike about the art of storytelling and how he and other tour guides blend facts and local lore to offer chilling and educational accounts of Schenectady's haunted history.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Michael I'm glad we could connect for this because I love a good story. It's one kind of art to write a story, but it's something else entirely to be able to tell one and hold your audience's attention. Weaving in local history just adds another layer to that art, and that brings me to you and why I am thrilled to be chatting with you today. You're a historian and a storyteller in your role with the Schenectady County Historical Society, and you lead some of the tours of Schenectady's Stockade district that explore spooky history over the years. Before we dig into any stories or the art of storytelling, can you give us a little background on your history and how you found your way to this role?
[00:02:03] Speaker C: Yeah, of course. So I'm a pretty local guy myself. I grew up in Gildedon, which is just the next town over. I have an honorary Schenectady mailing address when I was a kid, even though technically I was in Gilderland. So I've always loved history, discovered that as early as middle school, high school, that was always a passion for me. So, of course, when I went to college, I went to Hamilton College out by Utica, and I studied history there. And I feel like they really did prepare me for kind of, you know, to always be a lifelong student of history there at Hamilton. So I graduated back in 2015, which is longer and long ago now, but don't worry about that. And I came back. I came back home to my hometown, to Gilderman. And it just so happened that shortly thereafter, the Schenectady County Historical Society was looking for an educator. Now, I'd actually had worked with the historical society before I'd been a volunteer and then an intern back when I was in school, back in college. So they kind of knew who I was, and I kind of knew who this organization was. I knew it was a great organization, and, you know, I guess just the stars aligned, that they needed someone with, I guess, my skills because they hired me. That was back in 2017, and I've been doing it ever since, and I've been loving it ever since.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: What goes into planning and creating a tour of the region's haunted history? How do you decide which stories to tell, where to go? Cause it's more than just showing people around the neighborhood.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And these are tours that, obviously, we have to go beyond just the resources that are within our library. When I'm doing a standard tour of, you know, let's say, schenectady in the colonial period. Right. I can go into our library. I can find the resources right there. But a lot of the times, these stories, these hauntings, these supernatural occurrences are being told to us. Bye. You know, people who are alive today, right. They live in the stockade. They've experienced something that they can't quite understand. Maybe they're coming to us because they want to research the history of their house. They want to understand what could have happened, that maybe there's some lingering spirits. There's some lingering whatever, right? It's not for me to say. So they come and they tell us these stories. They share their experiences, and, you know, with their permission, we incorporate these into these candlelight tours that we've been doing.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: When you're deciding which stories to tell, how do you strike a balance between facts and fiction? You're a historian, so I'm sure you want to present the local history in an honest, factual way, but you're also weaving in all of this lore and legends.
[00:04:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. It's something that I always try to strike the balance in every other time of the year. I'm presenting these stories in as matter of fact a way as I can. I can document the things that I'm saying with primary sources, with historic manuscripts. So I have a pretty good idea of why I'm saying what I'm saying.
100% correct. History is not always about guarantees and certainties. It's about research and argument. But with these tours, I don't know about you, but I haven't seen a ghost in the stockade yet. So we have a little bit of a different evidentiary standard. We try to take the story that has been told to us, and we take that at face value, if someone comes up to us and tells us that this spooky thing happened to them, we're not just going to say that they're a liar. We're not going to write them off.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:12] Speaker C: We're going to take that story with the respect that it deserves, and then we're going to kind of research into the historical context. So I do like to, you know, manage the two. The personal experience and the historical encounters. Sorry, the historical context. So that even if you are the most skeptical person out there, you know, there is still, I think, some educational content in there for you. Right. We do talk about the history, the themes and the people and the time periods which have shaped our cities past, and then we situate that kind of, well, you know, that kind of more apocryphal, that more, you know, intangible story into that broader context.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: Tours like this can really test your ability to hold an audience's attention, given everything going on around you and sort of the unpredictable nature of the environment that you're doing it in. How do you keep people immersed and engaged in the stories and the history you're relaying to them? Because that is a storytelling skill.
[00:06:12] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's, of course, you know, a skill that I try to learn and develop every year. I try to be a little bit better at it. Maybe when I started off, I was a little bit more, you know, I don't know, just, I guess I would say that I didn't have that down so well. But what I've learned to really lean into, lean into the drama, lean into the theatrics. Don't be afraid to be a little bit silly or goofy. Right. People do respond to that. You just have to take that leap of faith. So when I'm telling the story, I really do gotta sell it. I have a certain cadence to my voice and, you know, I try to drop it low when things are getting spooky and scary and, you know, I try to get high when, you know, something exciting or spectacular is happening. So it's just something you gotta learn and practice and, you know, just imagine, you know, imagine, you know, you're in a tv show, right? How would they say that line? How would they. How would you expect that to be performed? We're all just so surrounded by media that we have this understanding of what a story is supposed to sound like. All we have to do is lean into it, kind of cut our inhibitions loose and, you know, just let it fly.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: Is there a storyteller that you sort of model your own storytelling after. Do you have a favorite sort of storyteller, historical or otherwise?
[00:07:25] Speaker C: Gosh, you know, I don't know if I have any particular influence, but for these stories in particular, I gotta say I'm learning from some of our other tour guides who have been doing these even before my time. We have people who live in the stockade who do these tours. They volunteer their time. We really appreciate them doing that. And honestly, I consider these guys the experts for these tours. These are the guys who you typically get when you come to our candlelight tours, and they do such a great job of telling these stories. And I've just been trying to kind of live up to that standard ever since.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: What is it about Schenectady that makes it such a fascinating subject for you? Because you clearly have a deep connection to this. When I was doing the research before our interview here, your name just kept coming up with all of these different elements of Schenectady's history. And it seems like you have some background, some knowledge, some historical experience in storytelling with so many different facets of Schenectady's history.
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I guess it just gets back to the fact that we are so lucky here in Schenectady. I mean, we have a long recorded history. Obviously, this land is not any older than other part of the earth, but we have a 350 year written history for Schenectady. Schenectady dates back to 1661. So we have all these different themes and all these different stories that we can draw on. Honestly, I think there's something for everyone in the study of Schenectady history, not just because it happened, but because through certain accidents, through certain coincidences, here in Schenectady, it's been pretty well preserved. Other towns, other cities in New York state, which might be about as old as Schenectady, maybe the physical history isn't there, it's not as tangible, it's not as present. But Schenectady has that, and we particularly have that in the stockade historic district. So it's just right there, ready to be, you know, ready to be enjoyed.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Hi, it's Rick again. The rest of this interview is coming up, but I just wanted to take a short break to tell you that if you like this podcast and want to support it, please make sure to subscribe on your podcast platform of choice and leave a review.
This isn't the only Gazette podcast either. Gazette sports editor Ken Schott has been interviewing people in and around the Capital region sports scene for hundreds of episodes. Now in his parting shots podcast, too. And if you'd like to stay up to date with everything happening in the region and beyond, be sure to subscribe to the Daily Gazette or sign up for the Gazette's newsletters, which deliver links to the top stories across the Gazette family of newspapers directly to your email.
Ok, now back to this episode of the martial arts podcast.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: I hate to put you on the spot here, but I'm going to anyways. Would it be possible for you to give us a little tease of what a story might be that someone might hear on one of these tours? It doesn't need to be the whole story, but what sort of stories would people hear about that then they might learn more about during one of these tours?
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I guess without spoiling anything, I don't want to give it all away. There is one story that I think is perhaps the most compelling. It's not a fun story. It's not a happy story. It relates to a young woman, Alice Vanderveer, whose existence itself, I mean, she's kind of an apocryphal figure, but her story has lingered in our town for so many different generations that I think it bears repeating. You see, Alice, well, she's a young, sweet girl who is under the control of her very domineering, her very nasty, brutal father. And, well, she starts to try to exercise her own independence and starts to try to sneak away from her father to meet a young man, a suitor of hers that she has fallen in love with. Now, unfortunately, this is not going to sit well with her father. There's going to be some tragic incidences that take place. And unfortunately for Alice, she will meet an untimely end. And since then, she is supposed to have met this end where Jackson Gardens in Union College now is. Right. So throughout the sixties and the seventies, these rumors, these legends of the specter of Alice van der Veer haunting Jackson Gardens, they've kind of percolated through the union campus. That story has made its way to our archives, where we retell it here in the stockade. Because even though the story unfortunately ends in Jackson Gardens, it will begin right in that stockaded settlement, right in that neighborhood where we are here in downtown Schenectady.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Well, the mark of a good storyteller is the fact that we're sitting here in a brightly lit studio recording this, and I am just hypnotized by this story, this tease that you gave me here. So that is wonderful.
Do you have a favorite ghost story? Do you have a favorite sort of tale from Schenectady, sort of haunted history.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: Hmm. Perhaps my favorite tale. There is a tale that comes to us.
It comes to us from the 1870s, and it deals with this gentleman, Henry Horstmeyer, who just purchased a new home. And it's right there on Church street, his home. And it's a pretty well to do home. He lives there alone. It's a big place for just, just him. But perhaps he's not there by himself, because shortly after moving in, he notices just outside his bedroom, in the long hallway outside his bedroom, footsteps in the dead hours of the night, just walking back and forth, pacing, as it were, just outside of his room. And Henry would have a pretty, pretty trying experience with these mysterious footsteps. Again, I can't give away the ending. Contractually obligate the same to save that one. If you want to hear that story, come to the candlelight tours. But I really do like that story. It really does touch on again the history and schonnecting this tragic time period. I mean, 1870s. Do a little bit of research. That's right after one of the most tragic periods in american history, the Civil War. There's all kinds of nasty stuff which went down in that time period, a lot of young men and women who didn't live to see the end of that conflict. So I'll leave it there. But Henry Horstmeyer, the mysterious footsteps in the hallway, that might be just my favorite story of all.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Well, pivoting back to the actual tours here, what sets the tours apart? Because there are two different ones. There's the colonial tour, and there's also the victorian tour. And besides these sort of time period descriptors there, what sort of sets these tours apart?
[00:14:10] Speaker C: Well, it really just is the time period that sets them apart. I mean, we are so lucky to have this wealth of history and this wealth of stories to tell. So for us, just separating them chronologically was a convenient way to organize these things and to break them up so that people could get the colonial experience one year and then come back for the victorian experience the next year. And there's no risk of overlap or hearing the same stories again. It keeps it fresh. Right. So, of course, the colonial deals with stories that originate in the 17th and 18th centuries, even if the ghostly happenings might continue on to the present.
And then the victorian, they deal with the troubling times of the 19th century and the stories, the people who lived and died in that period of time. So again, it keeps it fresh, and we just enjoy having these because it keeps people coming back.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Well, it would be silly not to bring up one of the big things that is bringing a lot of people to Schenectady or giving people a lot of interest in Schenectady lately, the Gilded Age.
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Oh, yep. Yep.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: How has all of the popularity surrounding that show, the filming in Schenectady, the interest in that era and its connection to Schenectady or other areas, how has that affected things on your side? Because I feel like, as for someone who does what you do, that's gotta be a big deal.
[00:15:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Gosh, I'll tell you, it made for a very interesting August. It was a pretty interesting August because, of course, we did have that filming primarily on Washington Avenue in the stockade. And in fact, not only were they filming right outside our museum, they were using our museum, our building, as a green room of sorts for many of the actors. And this was a huge production. Right. So you had dozens of people, extras, background characters and the principal cast themselves walking, strutting up and down Washington Avenue. They had carriages and horses and really beautiful set pieces to bring this late 19th century setting to life. So during that week or so where they were filming, again, Washington Avenue, it felt like a circus. There were all these people parading by and all these members of the general public kind of eagerly trying to get a look, get a glimpse. And, you know, the street was kind of closed off. You had to listen to the pas and they would tell you where you could go, where you couldn't go. It was this very interesting experience. I never had that close a brush with Hollywood before, but here we are, and you can tell that people really loved it. And perhaps even a little bit behind the curve. We realized that we should capitalize this on this. We had two gilded age tours of Schenectady. We just kind of threw them up on there on the calendar. Maybe no one will come. But, of course, within hours, these tours sold out, and that's like 30 people per tour. And, you know, that's a pretty significant sign there. We would have done more of those tours if our schedule wasn't already so busy in that September time period. But you can tell that people really loved that, responded to that. Not just the history, but again, kind of the glamour and the star power. And I hope, you know, I hope that Hollywood and all those folks out there making movies realize, you know, the incredible history that we have here in the capital region. Not just connectivity Albany, but Troy as well. Troy has really been kind of one of those main filming locations for the Gilded Age and its production. And I think if more and more people can realize the beautiful things we have here in Schenectady. Just right there. You don't need a green screen. You don't need a set. They're just there for you. I think that the profile of this area could grow considerably.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Where can people learn more about the tours and you and your work and the Schenectady County Historical Society?
[00:17:47] Speaker C: Oh, of course. So the best place to go is definitely our website, right? You can just Google search. Schenectady County Historical Society will come right up. Schenectihistorical.org dot. Right. That's the URL. So you can go there and learn about all the programs that we do. And not just the public programs, but also the work that we do. Right. Because we're not just a museum that offers these services. We're a community of like minded history enthusiasts, which you can be a part of, right? So becoming a member, volunteering, doing research at our library. At our research library, these are all ways that people can get involved with the history themselves, and they can become part of this evolving narrative, this evolving kind of corpus of research which informs what I do and what my colleagues at the historical society do. So definitely check out our website, folks. Even if you just have a casual interest in history, I think you'll find there's a lot more than you realized right here in your backyard. Alternatively, you can always go find us on Facebook. I think we have an Instagram as well. I mean, we have the typical social media channels. So, you know, look us up. We try to be fun. We try to be hit and with it, we do our best.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining me here. This has been wonderful. It's been educational. And I want to check out one of these tours.
[00:18:58] Speaker C: Oh, well, we'd be delighted to have you. They're coming up pretty much this week, next week, and then the following week, right through Halloween, we'll be running these tours. So check out our website for the dates that are available.
One warning there is that these tours do tend to sell out. So if you want to go get your tickets sooner rather than later, you might not be able to get those tickets the day of the event.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: Good to know. Thanks a lot, Mike.
[00:19:19] Speaker C: You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: This has been the Martial arts podcast with guest Michael Diana.
You can find more information about the Schenectady County Historical
[email protected]. dot thanks for listening to this episode of Martial Arts. If you like what you heard and want to hear more, make sure to subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts.
And for more coverage of the region's arts and entertainment scene, head to dailyGazette.com and Nipper Town.
This episode was produced by me, Rick Marshall for the Daily Gazette. If there's a local art story or artist you'd like to hear more about on this podcast, you can contact
[email protected] or via social media.
Thanks for listening.
